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Expertise in Indian names anyone?

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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby AdrianB38 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:21 pm

MoVidger wrote:For the 1882 Samuels-Potter marriage, it appears the wife, Elizabeth Edith Samuels (nee Potter) passed away in 1885.
... so the 1893 and 1896 Samuels children that Ian found, certainly don't have her as a mother - if indeed they are anything to do with each other in the first place. Not sure what that tells us....! Thanks

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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby elsabels » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:22 pm

I have tried to revisit / review the records for Edith / Gertrude/ Frank Leslie!

1904 ships manifest dated Nov 1904
Edith b 1872
Gertrude b 1894
Frank Leslie b 1896

1905 NY Census
Edith b 1872 shows 1865
Gertrude b 1894
Frank Leslie b 1896

1910 US Census
( Negendra ) Edith now widowed b 1874
Gertrude b 1894......

Gertrude is consistent with her year of birth as 1894, if I have correct death info in New Jersey her birth date is 1 February 1894

Frank Leslie his mother Edith states year of birth 1896 whereas FL states his birth date is 4 July 1894

Is this possible 2 children b in 1894, me thinks not unless they are not siblings!
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby AdrianB38 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:47 pm

I'm going with the estimate for Frank's birth from the 1904 etc. I don't trust the dates that he supplies later on. I hadn't realised that his dates would make him born roughly at the same time as Gertrude, so thanks for that, but, as I said above, having his birthday on 4 July and a paternal GF dying in the Civil War, is just all a bit too patriotic! All perfectly possible - but not from a family that seems to have written the book on unreliable witnesses! (Was it even legal to have your apparent mother in law swear who you were in a passport application?)

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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby ianbee » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:41 pm

AdrianB38 wrote:... so the 1893 and 1896 Samuels children that Ian found, certainly don't have her as a mother - if indeed they are anything to do with each other in the first place. Not sure what that tells us....!

In the absence of any further sign of Frank Leslie Samuels, I've been looking at some of the others with the same reference, Sep 1896, Steyning, 2b 270
Not sure why I do this sort of thing, only a vague hope it might suggest something. And yet there are six weeks in which you are supposed to register a birth, and I don't know if FLS was first or last of the ten, or somewhere in the middle. I've generally had the impression that they didn't rush to do it, often leaving it to the last week.
Anyway, as usual, it's mainly the females here...
Edith Rose Josephine Mansbridge
1901, age 4, born Brighton
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSNP-3H2

She seems to have married to Pryke in Brighton in 1917, and died in Cambridge in 1970, date of birth
19 June 1896
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVCT-98ZC

Elsie Elizabeth Simmons
1901, age 4, born Preston
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSJC-NWT

Looks likely that she married Norris Brooks in 1920 in Brighton and died in 1950
1939 Register gives her date of birth as 18 June 1896

Esme Kathleen Wilsher
1901, age 4, born Hove
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSJ7-24Z

Died in Hove in 1984, date of birth 13 July 1896
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVZ8-6JZ8

William Alfred Edwin Parsons
Probably him in Brighton in 1901, 4, born Hove (mother Caroline, nee Cole?)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSN2-GHW

He also died in 1950. His date of birth in 1939 is 30 June 1896

Rose Amy Morris
1901, age 4, born Hove
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSJC-ZSW

Died in Hove in 1981, date of birth 15 June 1896

Percy William Hodgkins shows in Aldrington in 1901.

Conclusions? None really, balance of probabilities may be that Frank Leslie Samuels was born in Hove.
In theory, from the earliest dates of birth above, the birth registration was made in July
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby ianbee » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:23 pm

That last statement was too sweeping. Please ignore.
Because on the next page (271) we have John Butler Weaver, who must be the John Butter Weaver, died 1980, d-o-b 6 July 1896
and
Eugenie Scanlan Leake, her d-o-b in 1939 was 13 July 1896
plus
Amy Caroline Eade, looks to have married James P Sanders, d-o-b in 1939 is 28 June 1896

Not found anyone born 4 July yet. But all around it!

No Ezra Manning in the 1911 census?
Does Adrian know where he was?
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby MoVidger » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:55 pm

I'm probably flogging a dead horse, but I keep returning to Edith's purported maiden names of Hayden and Rennymore (and variations thereof). Unless either name belonged to a step-father, if Edith had one.

And Gertrude's middle initials of S. L. (from her 1911 marriage record) have me wondering if the "L" represents "Leslie"? Hmm. Although this doesn't make finding births for her and Frank any easier.
Speaking of Gertrude, where is she in the 1920 and 1930 census? Husband Alfred is still in Atlantic City then, sans Gertrude.
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby AdrianB38 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:10 pm

At the time of the 1911 census, Ezra was in either Rangoon or Calcutta - don't remember which, indeed I might not even have exact dates. He was in forestry pre WW1 but his Army file includes that in a letter that he wrote.

The Calcutta connection is why I got interested in the Indian connection of his wife. I thought Ezra was the interesting one, never having dealt with an Army officer of that era. I thought that, for his wife, it would be just a case of confirming the family story that she was American by saying that (say) "According to the censuses, she was born and raised in New York State". It's not quite working out that way! At some point, frustration may overcome my interest... Not quite there yet but... (Huge thanks to all contributors so far!)

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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby MoVidger » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:14 pm

I guess we'll never know where and when Ezra met Edith.

Update: the Gertrude Simon (born 1 Feb 1894) who died in 1984 New Jersey belongs to a different family.
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby ianbee » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:09 pm

There is no possibility that Ezra's wife is the Edith Manning who died in Bootle in 1947, age 73?
I mean, I don't really think it likely, but almost anything may be worth mentioning on this one (without wishing to annoy Adrian!)
Buried in Bootle, 21 Feb 1947
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... at=1910606

grave owner Ivy Killeen. Which just might - at a bit of a stretch - be a misunderstanding of her daughter's married name
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.u ... /C12017858

3rd Class Yellow (what's the yellow?)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... at=1910606

Or was she the married cook in Carter Street, Liverpool, in 1939 (no husband with her), age would be a year or two out in that case.

She is the Mrs Ezra Manning who attended the funeral of Captain Charles Edward Thornhill in Liverpool in 1925? Who died at his son's house in Rundle Road Aigburth (the Captain was usually to be found in Hull)
1920 Liverpool electoral register had Ezra + Edith in Sandringham Road, but also an Ezra Manning at The Cottage, Aigburth Road??
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Re: Expertise in Indian names anyone?

Postby MoVidger » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:57 pm

With regards the 3rd Class Yellow document image, who is the "John Loughous? Tolton" mentioned in Edith's burial plot?
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