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George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

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Re: George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

Postby ianbee » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:31 pm

Charlotte Mc Gee
Christening Date: 1 Sep 1823
Christening Place: Morrice St Wesleyan, Devonport, Devon
Birth Date: 13 Aug 1823
Father: Peter Mc Gee
Mother: Mary

Esther Magee
Christening Date: 5 Feb 1827
Christening Place: Morrice St Wesleyan, Devonport, Devon
Birth Date: 7 Jan 1827
Father: Peter Magee
Mother: Mary
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Re: George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

Postby AdrianB38 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:58 am

Re that 1871
1 Well done for finding him.
2 So as that's Charlotte, then Augustus and Adolphus could be hers, with mother's maiden name Magee (or whatever the spelling was). So my deduction that the 1881 is Esther Magee isn't valid. I suspect that it is her, but the 2 MMNs seem to refer to Charlotte so they don't suggest that it's her.

Why the banns in Charlotte's maiden name? I have no idea. Surely it makes things a bit more obvious? As in, "Wasn't his first wife a Magee as well?" "First wife? Didn't I see her the other week?"

Makes no sense....

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Re: George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

Postby meekhcs » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:55 am

Following on to Ian's 1871 census find in Portsea there is the following death
Charlotte Esther Helsden
Burial 16 June 1870
St Mary's Portsea
age 4
living Hannover Place

Birth from GRO Charlotte Esther Mother Magee GRO 1865 Q3 Eastry 02A 745 which indicates a Kent birth.

Helps to tie in Family movements but doesn't tellus which sister was the Mother
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Re: George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

Postby meekhcs » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:09 am

But in 1881 George and ESTHER are at 74 Evelyn St (Southside) St Pauls Deptford with the boys Augustus born Deal Kent and Astolphus bn Portsea 1871
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Re: George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

Postby meekhcs » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:29 pm

city.archives@southampton.gov.uk
above is the email address for the Southampton Records Office.The National Archives records show that Southampton holds a couple of crew lists for The Tagus.I supect they will refer to earlier years but worth an email to see if 1822 is covered.
The office is very helpful but only part time, so any answer may take a few days,but as there are only 2 lists involved they may well check them for you foc
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Re: George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

Postby meekhcs » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:32 pm

scrap my last post I am muddling HMS and RMS Tagus
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Re: George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

Postby AdrianB38 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:34 pm

No surprise I'm getting even more confused.

I'm even less clear now where GFH was born. The phrase "At Sea off the Tagus" is used in his Royal Navy Engagement Book. The meaning of this is clear to me - he was born on a ship of unknown name, which was at sea, and was off the mouth of the River Tagus - which is on the coast of Portugal.

However, when I dug around to follow up on Sally's comments about Ship's Lists for a ship called The Tagus, I discovered that there actually was a Royal Navy ship called HMS Tagus - see http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/18-1900/T/04556.html - a 38-gun 5th rate, which was disposed of in 1822.

As an aside, apparently, "In September 1814 while hunting for the American frigate ESSEX, HM ships TAGUS (Captain Philip Pipon) and BRITON were the first British ships to visit Pitcairn island since the BOUNTY mutiny of 1789." http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/597305.html

No doubt there were commercial ship called The Tagus as well, but it's tricky finding them in Google because the river drowns out the ships. (No pun intended).

Approaching things with a cynical eye, it might be that GFH's reference to a ship called the Tagus was misinterpreted for his Royal Navy Engagement Book as a reference to the river mouth. Or, of course, the river mouth might be exactly what was intended from the start, in which case the ship's name could be anything.

At least, it might be useful to see if ship's musters for HM Tagus survive and have a chap with the same (alleged) name as GFH's father. I can't see anything myself but Navy records are not my forte.
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Re: George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

Postby ianbee » Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:25 pm

ianbee wrote:Esther Magee
Christening Date: 5 Feb 1827
Christening Place: Morrice St Wesleyan, Devonport, Devon
Birth Date: 7 Jan 1827

And a death
June 1849 Stoke Damerel 9 293
Helsdon, Esther
22

Looks like there might be a burial (Helson) at Stoke Damerel on fmp?
I think that allotment record found by Adrian with the money going to Charlotte was from about 1850.
An earlier one puts Esther in Devonport.

So either there was a second Esther, or for some reason Charlotte later became Esther. Personally I think it's the latter, but no idea why.
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Re: George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

Postby AdrianB38 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:23 pm

Ian - can you find any evidence that the Charlotte marriage to GFH took place? Other than the banns?

Charlotte taking Esther's name? Well, stranger things have happened.... If they never actually married, and they needed a marriage certificate to claim something... Well, here's one from earlier - you just have to change your name, dear. ?????!!!!!

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Re: George Frederick Helsden born 22/12/1822

Postby ianbee » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:21 pm

Hi Adrian
No, I can't see any sign of a marriage either. As you said, it would have been illegal anyway. So perhaps they thought better of it!
The marriage certificate needed for something idea certainly seems plausible to explain the name change.
Died and buried in 1891 as Esther as well. So the family kept up the deception to the end!
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