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WW1 1914-1920 records contains 1887 joining form?

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WW1 1914-1920 records contains 1887 joining form?

Postby PatW » Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:58 pm

I am trying to find out more about the death of George Hoddle born about 1871 and died in 1890 in Singapore by drowning. I found a record on Ancestry in the WW1 1914 - 1920 records that is his joining form for July 1887. Unfortunately it's a 'burnt around the edges' record so a lot of information is missing. I'm pretty sure it's the correct person from the bits I can read. So why would a form from 1887 be in the above records? I know from a letter written by a relative( since deceased) that George was drowned at Singapore. Any help at all would be appreciated.

Thanks
PatW
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Re: WW1 1914-1920 records contains 1887 joining form?

Postby AdrianB38 » Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:42 pm

Assuming it really is him and not another George Hoddle (have you tried used the back and forward arrows?) then (a) it's not unknown and (b) rather odd.

The odd bit is that, before WW1, personnel records for soldiers who died in service were scrapped off. I believe that this began to alter about the time of the 2nd Boer War when widows' pensions were started but the default position was "scrap unless needed...". I've often thought that the only reason the situation changed for WW1 was that records had to be kept until the Campaign Medals were issued and then no-one could face the workload necessary to scrap the unwanted papers.

As for not being unknown, Paul Nixon, a major military genealogy blogger and researcher has said that this happens every so often. Surviving pre-WW1 stuff should have been taken out of the regimental admin offices at some point. Well, of course, inevitably stuff got missed and remained with the then-current papers (there was no physical difference after all, you simply had to sit there and read the things. Or not). Later, when the time came to dispatch the WW1 papers for soldiers who were no longer serving, these Victorian or Edwardian papers were just bundled up with the surrounding stuff and sent off. There'd have been no attempt to take them to the right document store, I'm sure. Too much like hard work!

So it looks like you have 2 oddities here - a very odd survival and a pre-WW1 set of papers in the WW1 stuff. And assuming he's the chap whose father is Charles, from the Back St, Olney, then I've just seen the papers - they mention Singapore and an inquest, and are book-ended by "New Soldier" sheets so do seem to be him and no-one else.

PS - the capacity for errors suggests that the Ministry of Defence still has papers for soldiers for served in WW1 but left before 1920-ish. And of course, there will be WW1 soldiers who served after 1920-ish and their papers are "definitely" still with the MoD. (Apart from those that aren't!)
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Re: WW1 1914-1920 records contains 1887 joining form?

Postby PatW » Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:56 pm

OK thanks Adrian.
I did look at the following record to George's and it so happens that it was my grandfather.

Do you have any ideas about where to look next for details of the inquest into the drowning?

Thanks

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Re: WW1 1914-1920 records contains 1887 joining form?

Postby meekhcs » Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:27 pm

FMP has a fuller set of military records which mentions his death by drowning in Singapore, his birth place as Olney Bucks and his Father's name Charles. His death record appears in the "British Nationals Armed Forces" death records as Hoddle George, aged 21, Singapore 1890 page 509

If you don't have a subscription it may be worth seeing if you can take out a 14 day Free Trial with FMP. You will have to supply your card details so make sure you cancel the trial before the 14 days elapse or you WILL be charged.

Sally
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Re: WW1 1914-1920 records contains 1887 joining form?

Postby AdrianB38 » Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:15 pm

Sally - I could only see the same on FMP as I saw on Ancestry - several pages, very much burnt, with the words that you mention in the middle - I'm hoping that Pat did go back and forth to get all the images on Ancestry. (It is often the case that stuff appears on FMP that's not in Ancestry and probably vice versa - whether it genuinely isn't there or my search works on one but not the other, I don't know).

Pat - I have no idea about an inquest in Singapore - inquests in the UK are bad enough to find, and the answer is usually "in newspapers". Any details kept by the Army would presumably have been bundled with his service papers so it may be that the Army wasn't that interested or everything they needed was written in one line that we can't see or can't read.

Incidentally if Olney really is where he came from, I wonder if he was the George Hoddle fined 2 shillings and 2 shillings costs in 1883 for being one of 4 lads "charged with obstructing the highway Olney, by playing football"! That's in FMP's newspapers.
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Re: WW1 1914-1920 records contains 1887 joining form?

Postby Sylcec » Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:58 am

I haven't used the site in a very long time, so unable to give specific guidance, but the Singapore National Library provides access to digitised newspapers. See: http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/ and you may find something there which will help regarding your ancestor's death.
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Re: WW1 1914-1920 records contains 1887 joining form?

Postby meekhcs » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:34 am

Adrian- I must admit I didn't look at Ancestry but went straight to FMP. I ASSUMED from Pat's comment that only the 1st page was available on Ancestry. A habit I really need to break after all these years of researching!

Sally
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Re: WW1 1914-1920 records contains 1887 joining form?

Postby PatW » Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:17 am

Hello everyone,
Thanks very much for all the helpful information that you've provided. I'm now about to start more searching and at least find out what I can. Another case of wishing I'd asked more when the relative who briefly told me about him was still alive !

Thanks again
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Re: WW1 1914-1920 records contains 1887 joining form?

Postby junkers » Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:07 pm

There are a number of records from the Boer War have been incorporated into the First World War records but it is not consistent.
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